it comes in pints?

1. I fail to see how shutting down YouTube would stop "cyberbullying." You can still send threatening e-mails. Or, shut that down? Kids can still send threatening notes.

2. If a student posted a picture of me with "you are dead" written next to it, I'd be more concerned about that particular individual's mental health than I would about the existence of technology that allowed him or her to do that. (And I'd probably be creeped out but ultimately find a way to laugh it off).

3. Part of the problem is that in many instances, discipline of an undisciplined child is not permitted either by the schools or the parents. Honestly, some days I'd like to see education NOT be required, so teachers could kick the sorry asses of the kids who disrupt their classes out. If we got the idea that getting an education (so you didn't have to flip burgers for the rest of your life) was a privilege rather than a right (or some torture to be endured, as a lot of kids and their parents seem to assume), we might be able to move ahead a little better.

Of course, we'd have to find employment for 50,000 would-be burger flippers, but I don't think that's necessarily a bigger problem than kids who are so disruptive that little-to-no teaching goes on in the classroom. (I have friends with kids and their kids complain on a regular basis about how some classes are just hard to learn in, because of the "troublemakers.")

B-b-b-but... we would huwt they wittle sewf-esteem!

Now, we got our self-esteem the old-fashioned way. We earned it. [/houseman] I think it's better that way. What little I have to hang my hat on is in fact mine, and not the fevered imaginings of parents who lie, teachers who lie, television, and my peer group. Best to learn early in life that one is not all that, before someone has to disabuse you.

Emily, I gotta say that's one thing I worry about as I'm studying to be a school librarian: that I'll be subjected to hysterical extremists like these.

Actually I would encourage you to have kids--they'd be smart, sensible and nice. :) In spite of the fact that I'd like to work in education, I've got homeschooling (gasp!) in the back of my mind for when I have kids. After I see what's going on in the schools. (And hopefully if I needed to homeschool it wouldn't be illegal. . .)

It's not just the kids that are the problem anymore, Ricki. My Aunt was a math teacher in Florida, and she wound up retiring early because she got so sick of parents who would come in and get in her face for trying to discipline their little Precious who could do no wrong. Jeebus, when I was in school, if I was disciplined by a teacher or principal, my parents wouldn't even ask for my side of the story, let alone question their judgement.

Then again, at my school, my dad once had to go in and talk to the principal over something my little brother had done and the guy actually had a bumper sticker hanging in his office that said "QUESTION AUTHORITY." A fucking school principal!!!!

'Fly - exactly. And just what in the hell is wrong with teaching kids that it's more important to first have esteem for others above themselves? When did the insipid notion of self-esteem become a birthright and not something a person had to be worthy of?

Kate - yep, if I ever wind up changing my mind about the kid thing, if I'm not in a position to afford private school and can't move to an area that has a school with a good reputation, it's homeschool for sure. I worry about kids being socially stunted or what not from not having friends from school, but there are ways to get around that like sports and other kinds of non-school clubs.

Yeah, when it comes to homeschooling the concern about social development does come up. The first college I attended had a HUGE proportion of homeschooled kids and I saw it cut both ways. Some were awesome people and others just went wild and off the deep end, but I'd say the problems were more from their families' messing them up than not having attended "regular" school (case in point: my SIL who was an army brat with emotionally detached parents).

This also comes from the zero-tolerance Nazis. When I was a kid, bullying got settled (at least among the guys) with fists and feet. If someone had posted something about me on You Tube (if it had existed then) when I was in high school, I would have issued an invitation to meet the idiot in the boys room down by the gym, and someone would have gone home that day sporting a bloody nose. Since I was a brown / black belt in high school, it would likely not have been me. It would have been worth the 3 day suspension for fighting.

Nowadays a fight would get you expelled, but the act that caused the fight in the first place gets barely a slap on the wrist, so incorrigible kids don't learn the consequences of their actions.

John,
Yep, that "zero tolerance" bullshit is part of what I was referring to when I wrote "sissy culture." My dad told me about his days in school. He and his buddies were athletes and the way they dealt with bullies who picked on the weaker kids was to tell them to cut it out or else. It was barely a problem. I can totally understand teachers and administrators discouraging fighting and punishing it, but not when it is in self-defense or to put down a bully. That's just stupid.

I still remember Sgt. Stryker writing a post years ago about his son getting in a fight at school and the principal calling him to tell him about the "problem." Sarge asked if his kid threw the first punch and when the principal told him no, he said "then what's the problem? He did exactly what I taught him to do." Damn straight. I bet no one ever tried to hit that kid again.

Zero tolerance is a real cancer in the schools. I recall one nasty bully in my high school getting pounded into the ground by another, very easy going but incredibly strong kid (his nickname was "Freight Train"...in sports, no one could stop him).

The bully picked the fight, and Freight Train literally beat the crap out of the bully. Several teachers stood back, out of sight, and let it happen. When Freight Train was finished (and he knew when to stop, he had a cool head), the teachers moved in. That bully never bothered anyone again. Problem solved.....permanently. To the satisfaction of all, less the bully. Who learned a valuable lesson that day.

Not to mention the entertainment for us kids! It was a great fight.

Hahaha. "Freight Train." I love that nickname.

That sounds like my dad, Emily. "Never throw the first punch. Always throw the last punch." He was a quotable fellow. =)

As for your question, I couldn't say for sure, because my family was very big on respecting others and having good manners and things like that; for us it never really went out of fashion. I'm not a big fan of "there's more of it than ever," because there's always been rude people and boors and bullies... but the idea of social stigma has largely shifted away from people's behaviors in this area, so it's harder to correct without other people seeing the correction as the problem, and not the original misbehavior. Stuff like this is celebrated more than frowned upon.

I think one big consequence is that only the juvenile delinquents and such used to act this way - the others who were borderline cases were kept in line by social pressures and eventually learned better. Now that pressure is gone, and with it a large incentive for someone to act like a civilized adult when it's not in his best interests.

In the long run it's a major disservice to the kids as well as the rest of us - they never give their best because fewer people bother to ask it of them. They never learn what they're really capable of, and it's not just in manners, either, but in many other areas: education, career, parenting (yikes). The best thing my folks and teachers ever did for me was demand that I grow up and handle my responsibilities.

It's not just sad for the kids who are the problem themselves, but for *all* kids. I used to volunteer as a judge at our local history day for the kids of all ages. Most of them would put together these great projects about historical events and stuff. Some of the kids really worked hard and came up with truly impressive projects. But we were told that we were not to praise these kids, as one of the other kids who didn't do as well might get their feelings hurt. It was one of those "everybody gets a prize" kind of deals. Yeah, well what about the feelings of a kid who works their ass off and the best they're told is "you did okay"? How do THEY feel? And what incentive do they have to work hard in the future if they're going to get the same gold star as everyone else? What's the point of even having judges if you're not going to have them, you know, JUDGE. It was sad.

Good discussion, folks. It wins a manual trackback.

"Never throw the first punch. Always throw the last punch."

Yeah, that sounds like my Dad too. He said that if anyone started a fight with me, I should finish it. He also said that if I ever started one, he would finish it.

This is one of those areas I've wanted to post on but haven't found the right way to express it. It's not just the zero tolerance bullshit, where the kid defending himself is punished as much as the bully. I think something was lost when kids were kept from fighting completely (as expressed in the comments above).

Back when kids were used to fighting at least occasionally, there was a fight and it was over (usually). Lot of times, the kids could even be friends afterward. Now, resentments just simmer.

I won't flat out state that school shootings are caused by this, but they were totally unknown just a few decades ago, and no one took guns to school except the rifle teams and hunters.

As far as the school shootings go, I think you're on the right track. You hear that some of those kids responsible were bullied. Well, they wouldn't have been if it weren't for the idiots who teach kids that violence is never the answer. That's such bullshit. It should never be a first resort, and like you guys have already said, it should always be the last answer, but there are times in life when fighting is quite necessary.

Also - something 'Fly hit on over at his post - there are people arguing to take the competition out of sports so that no poor kid ever has to suffer "the agony of defeat." Human beings - hell, nearly all species - are competitive by nature. You take that away from them, all the agression that they would have got out of their system by running, playing, throwing around a ball, and doing their hardest to win is left unspent. Just like all those jackasses who want to take monkey bars off of playgrounds and forbid kids from doing the slightest amounts of physical activity because Precious might get bwuised.

And they wonder why kids are fatter and more violent. Blaming video games and TV is always the easy out. It's somebody elses fault. The answer couldn't possibly be in my own backyard.

Spot on, guys. I see it at the rink all the time. Guys shake hands, joke with each other, line up for the opening drop - and then blast each other (physically and verbally) for an hour. Then they all hang out in the parking lot laughing over a cooler full of beers. Especially for guys, striving against each other is a bonding experience. You work it out there and then it doesn't simmer over time.

For example - and y'all may believe it less than I did at first - but Mr. U (Team Geritol captain) came up to me last night at the rink and apologized for flipping his gourd the other day. He didn't try to justify himself either, he just apologized. I explained what I saw and why I called it the way I did, and he nodded and admitted that he didn't even realize it while it was happening. It's entirely a closed matter now.

Score one for adulthood.

That's pretty cool to hear, 'Fly. Good for him to be big enough to do that. And for you, to be big enough to put it behind you and forgive him.